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Kingmaker Planning Discussion

Moderators: Gary, Michael Doss.

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Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Greg, I didn't get a character picture from you, so I'm going with this unless you send me something else. I think it's actually a pretty good fit.

User posted image
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Awesome pic for a dwarf invoker. How can he not like it.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Member
Registered: Mar 2010
Posts: 105
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Uh, yeah. I can't do any better than that. That's perfect.
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Cool. It's one of the Paragon Paths from Divine Power. Love how even the colors work for your deity.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Jul 2008
Posts: 5245
covaithe wrote
Uh, yeah. I can't do any better than that. That's perfect.


Hey, Greg. Can you use a smaller version of the pic for your avatar? It is eating into the main thread space. This message board software adjusts to fit the full size of the pic. What can I say, I have a small monitor.
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Dungeon Master - Scales of War
Edeya - Githzerai Seeker - Points of Light
Member
Registered: Mar 2010
Posts: 105
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Sure; is this one better? You might have to refresh, since the URL is the same.
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Gary, I emailed an excel file with all five PC and the Variel's beast tokens.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Jul 2008
Posts: 5245
covaithe wrote
Sure; is this one better? You might have to refresh, since the URL is the same.


Much. Now Viktor's avatar is the fattest.
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Dungeon Master - Scales of War
Edeya - Githzerai Seeker - Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
So, now that my summer classes are over, I am making a character to introduce in the campaign. Knowing your need for a defender and the only idea I have for one is really a Warforged Paladin, I started looking at that for the Kingmaker world. I have a character idea largely in place, but I welcome suggestions.

My Warforged (excuse me, Gearsman) Paladin will be a follower of Cayden Caileen (a human that took a drunken dare to take the Test of the Starstone and passed). He is a god of freedom, ale, bravery with domains: Chaos, Charm, Good, Liberation, Strength, and Travel. His worshipers mainly include people associated with alcohol and good adventurers. The idea for my character is that he will be extremely freedom-loving, more or less on a quest to free the peoples of the world from tyranny (especially his fellow Gearsmen). I have not looked at Paladin builds too much (especially since Divine Power) and I was thinking about a Charisma-based Paladin (liek the Virtuous Paladin build), but I am not sure how feasible that is with a warforged. Any thoughts?
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
You won't be any worse off than Sentinel as a Swordmage. You'll want/need warforged tactics early to overcome your initial deficit in the cha stat. Outside that, there are several strong builds on the WoTC boards. I can point you to some, or just tell you what to take since Allena is t3h bestiest evah! 8) Your biggest problem will be dividing your stats between cha, wis, and con with only a racial bonus to con. I think you'll manage ok though. You can probably do 8 int, 10 dex, and 12 str (racial) as starting stats and divvy the others into a useful combo.

In all seriousness, if you want to go paladin, any defender is a much welcome/needed addition to the group. I'll even tolerate another diety thumper in the group for it. ;) We've got a fair amount of healing, so you may wish to concentrate upon divine beatdown as opposed to mass healing, shielding and protection. While Cha pallies get plenty of healing/buffing options, they have some good attack options as well. Cha can easily go radiant vulnerability cheese with certain at-wills and a feat or two. I don't know how much the party could take advantage of that though. Greg and Emily can chime in on that one. Being the only defender with a crowded melee field, you might want to look into bursts that inflict divine sanction upon a wide range of foes. If they can't get to you, they eat damage for attacking, which is always good.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Well, my character wouldn't really be a bible thumper type. Cayden Cailean isn't really that kind of deity it looks like, and besides, the character is going to have some weird reasons for being the way he is (you will see some of it once I have the character finished, and hopefully more of it as we play more). I am actually kind of interested in focusing on charging a bit, and there is some ability to do that with Charisma as the main stat (Ardent Strike at-will can be used on a charge and is Cha or Str based and Virtuous Strike at-will can be used as a MBA). In addition, I think that the best level 1 encounter power is Valorous Strike, which is a Cha weapon power that is has a Close Burst 3 DS when you hit.

Do you think this is a reasonable start or too low: 16 Str, 12 Con, 11 Dex, 8 Int, 15 Wis, 16 Cha (after racial mods). I could also go 14 Str, 12 Con, 11 Dex, 8 Int, 14 Wis, 17 Cha (again, after mods). I was going to use a longsword, so I don't think the lack of an 18 will hurt too bad. I feel like I need at least +2 in Wis because of all of the riders.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
Unless you have a need for high str, dump it down to 12 after your racial adjustment. There certainly are cha/str split builds, but there are plenty of cha or str options at each level that you don't need to use more than one. If you go with Virtuous Strike, you've got your strong melee basic attack for OAs. Depending upon which domains Gary gives you access to you can make it into a brutal go-to attack. Power of the sun, for instance, adds radiant vulnerability on a hit. Your divine challenge/sanction damage in radiant, which makes your mark really nasty to ignore.

I would consider 14 wis a minimum, since it's your true secondary stat (exception for 18,13,13,10,10,8 starting stats maybe). You're right; a lot of riders rest on it. You con looks a bit worrysome. We have lots of healing, and you can generate temp HP with your racial power, but you might want to drop str and raise con.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
« Last edit by nmathew on Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:27 pm. »
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Here are some rough drafts for my character. This post is a Charisma Paladin, the next will be a Strength Paladin. I chose level 3 because I think that is where the group will be when I enter. Oh, and I chose Avandra as deity, because that is as close as any DND one gets.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Data, level 3
Warforged, Paladin
Build: Virtuous Paladin

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 10, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 18.


AC: 21 Fort: 13 Reflex: 14 Will: 17
HP: 39 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Endurance +5, Diplomacy +10, Intimidate +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -3, Arcana, Bluff +5, Dungeoneering +3, Heal +3, History, Insight +3, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth -3, Streetwise +5, Thievery -3, Athletics -2

FEATS
Level 1: Commanding Vow
Level 2: Deadly Draw

POWERS
Lay on Hands: Virtue's Touch
Paladin at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin daily 1: Majestic Halo
Paladin utility 2: Call of Challenge
Paladin encounter 3: Righteous Smite

ITEMS
Longsword, Holy Symbol, Heavy Shield, Plate Armor, Adventurer's Kit
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Lor, level 3
Warforged, Paladin

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 13.


AC: 21 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 16
HP: 39 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Insight +9, Intimidate +9, Endurance +5

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -3, Arcana, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, History, Nature +4, Perception +4, Stealth -3, Streetwise +2, Thievery -3, Athletics +1

FEATS
Level 1: Mighty Challenge
Level 2: Warforged Tactics

POWERS
Lay on Hands: Virtue's Touch
Paladin at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Forbidding Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Divine Pursuit
Paladin daily 1: Blazing Brand
Paladin utility 2: Call of Challenge
Paladin encounter 3: Strength from Valor

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Plate Armor, Heavy Shield, Holy Symbol
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Both builds look fine. The CHA build is very similar to the other three paladins we've seen so far (Alysandra, Azad, Allena), while your STR build looks more interesting to me since it's different and has the potential to dish out as well as receive.

BTW, driving blades (str) or glorious charge (cha) are nice level 1 dailies that can be used in charges, if you want to take your charging idea further.

As Nathan said, given that we've got plenty of healing, you could even go with non-lay on hands builds. Virtue's Touch is great for negating some nasty status effects while Ardent Vow would add a nice 8 damage boost when used and is another way to divine sanction an enemy indefinitely.

PS: I like your PC names. I hope your version of Lor wouldn't be malicious though. ;)
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
I was planning on going with Virtue's Touch. I know that I could go high damage output with a Strength Pally, but I don't really want that. In fact, the Virtuous Paladin Build is a lot more the type of Paladin I am looking for. I was thinking he could focus on three main things: Divine Sanction, Charging, Saves, and that fits a lot more with the Cha build, I think. Again, I am not very attuned to paladin powers (especially those at later levels), so I am not sure a Str paladin can be built for all three of those things (everything I have been reading is that the Str-based are high damage and that's it).

And the names are just placeholders for now.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
The guild I linked to has a cha/str break down of every power through lvl 30. I know that you'll have little trouble spamming sanctions and handing out saves as a cha pally. Synergy with charging might be a tad harder to pull off, but there are two at-wills capable of being used in concert with a charge attack.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
If you're going for saves/charging/sanction, then a chaladin seems better than a straladin.

I agree with Nathan that the charging theme might be hard since in heroic tier the only CHA "charging" powers are ardent strike (at-will), virtuous strike (at-will), glorious charge (daily 1), hold fast (encounter 3), and blade of light (encounter 7). That may be enough for you though and leaves plenty of other powers to choose for the other slots.

Since your paladin looks like it might be marking many enemies every battle, you might want to consider improved warforged resolve feat at some point in heroic tier or toughness.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Jul 2008
Posts: 5245
It took me a couple minutes to figure out what a straladin was.
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Dungeon Master - Scales of War
Edeya - Githzerai Seeker - Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Yeah, they have weird terminology. Like, I think the favored term for an Inspiring Warlord (like Mal) is Bardlord. And bards came out after inspiring warlords.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
I was looking at some of the save combos that are possible. These won't really be HUGE until a few levels higher, but it is something that I can easily retrain into. First, the context: Warforged have +2 to save vs. OGD and Warforged Resolve (minor action) is the encounter racial power that in part allows you to make a saving throw against an OGD effect.

As a Paladin, I get a Channel Divinity (Divine Mettle, minor action) that grants my Cha mod (+4 if I go with the Chaladin listed above). Then, I am planning on taking the Virtuous Strike at-will (MBA and I get +2 bonus to saves until the start of my next turn). Touch of Grace (level 2 encounter utility, minor action) let's me transfer a save ends effect from an adjacent target to me (if an OGD, I can then use Warforged Resolve, or just take the lump and save at the end of the turn, and I can have Virtuous Strike or Divine Mettle give me a bonus for the end of the turn). A level 3 Encounter power (Trial of Strength) has an effect of making a save with Wis mod bonus (+2) before the attack. So, I can use that as well. I think I will start with other powers and as we run into more save ends effects, I can retrain.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
This is more or less the final draft of my Gearsman Paladin, other than the background. Warforged Tactics will give him a +1 to hit when adjacent to an ally, Ardent Strike is a charge and apply Divine Sanction, Valiant Strike gives a bonus to hit based on the number of enemies around me. For the encounters, I took Call of Challenge (utility that applies DS to all enemies in burst 3), Piercing Smite (vs. Ref and marks up to 4 adjacent enemies), and Winter's Edge (burst 1 that slows UENT on a hit or immobilizes UENT on a hit if already marked). My daily is Driving Blades, 2W+mod + 5 OGD (save ends) and every time I hit the target before it saves, I push it 1 sq and shift 1 sq into the space and can use on a charge. Because I will be charging a lot, I decided to take a Jousting Heavy Shield as my level 2 item, which gives me resist 5 to OAs I incur on a charge and forced movement won't work on me after the charge. Also, I am taking Virtue's Touch (3 times a day I can remove one of blinded, dazed, deafened, slowed, stunned, or weakened).

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Aluric, level 3
Warforged, Paladin

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 21 Fort: 16 Reflex: 15 Will: 16
HP: 41 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +8, Endurance +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -2, Arcana, Bluff +1, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, History, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +4, Stealth -2, Streetwise +1, Thievery -2, Athletics +1

FEATS
Level 1: Mighty Challenge
Level 2: Warforged Tactics

POWERS
Lay on Hands: Virtue's Touch
Paladin at-will 1: Valiant Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Piercing Smite
Paladin daily 1: Driving Blades
Paladin utility 2: Call of Challenge
Paladin encounter 3: Winter's Edge

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Plate Armor, Heavy Shield, Holy Symbol, Jousting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Looks great. Lot's of marking will help our group a lot. Charging will be fun too. I have badge of the berskerker for Takeo which allows him to charge without incurring any OA's and since he's a half-orc his charge speed is 8. Maybe you can think of some tactics how we can use the our charging together.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Josh, one thing to consider, if you haven't already. Mighty Challenge adds your Str mod to your Divine Challenge. However, it does NOT do so for your Divine Sanction. So, your DS isn't quite as stinging to those who defy it. Not a huge deal, but figured I'd point it out now before we bring your PC into play, in case you hadn't noticed and it makes a difference to you.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Yeah, I realize that. It is tough to make that decision. I think I may bump Charisma to 12 instead of Dex, which should help a little. I'll be giving up the Initiative and Reflex, but I get Reflex def back a bit from the shield, so, whatev. Also, I am planning on possibly switching off of Call of Challenge once saves become important, so I won't be using DS too much at that point.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light

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