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Eberron Leveling and Item Discussions

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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Here is a thread you guys can use to discuss leveling and wishlists...
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
« Last edit by Josh on Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:20 am. »
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Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
I thought you said to wait until after the jump for request lists 8). I'm pretty OK with random items or whatever you think would be cool for us to have at this point. I haven't planned out any must have items/combos yet.
Rushing Cleats will be on my list for awhile, though I probably won't have much use for them until paragon. (lvl7)
Lets get the weird/character building stuff down, then I'll look at the serious stuff later. A magic longsword would be great though.
Delver's Light, wondrous item lvl2 (or a sun globe lvl1; that appears to be a cheap knock-off...)
Eternal Chalk lvl1
Hedge Wizard's Gloves, hands slot lvl4
Bag of Holding, wonderous item lvl5
Reading Spectacles, head lvl2
Arcanist's Glasses, head lvl3
Command Circlet, head lvl5
Blessed book, wonderous, lvl1
Friend's Gift, companion slot lvl4

Deathcut Armor, leather lvl5
Runic Armor, leather lvl3
Armor of Aegis Expansion, leather lvl2


Pinning Weapon, longsword lvl2
Aegis Blade, longsword, lvl3
Runic Weapon, longsword lvl5

neck slot, anything pretty much.

Set items from Marjam's Dream
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
« Last edit by nmathew on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:24 pm. »
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
So, now that I have phb3 and have been reading about the ardent, I am considering changing Lan's starting line-up of attributes. That of course is up to Josh, if he would allow it (please :mrgreen: ). Seeing all the power options for both ardent builds makes me want to balance the character a little bit more so that I can take options better suited to being a leader. Some good powers play off of CON mod bonuses, that increase ally battle prowess. Since we're only four PC's I'm thinking we can use all the help we can.

Specifically, I like the level 1 daily, Battleborn Acuity, and the level 3 at-will, Unnerving Shove, and the level 7 at-wills, Forward-Thinking Cut and Rewarding Strike. They all use CON mod. To this end, I'm wanting to use the following attribute line-up instead, with the intention of boosting CON and CHA at level 4. It would result in a little less OA protection (+3 instead of +4), -1 WIS defense but +1 FORT, some changes in skill values, give Lan a little more hp and another surge, but most importantly opens up power options now with phb3 and probably with Psionic Power once it comes out later this year. Would this change be okay?

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 16.

Apart from that, I've looked a little bit at what kind of items to get, but haven't decided yet. With AC 16, armor should probably be the first choice since I'm having to go into the thick of things every battle with the small party size. Quicksilver armor+1 looks good (+1 speed while having at least one powerpoint, encounter minor: shift 1 square). Will still look some more.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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I think it would be fine. Are you only thinking of the attribute change (other than normal retraining, obviously)? I think it would be best to wait until level 2, and hopefully by then it will be in the CB.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Great! Thanks! Yeah, just attribute changes. Definitely want to keep playing the ardent. I very much enjoy the augmentation system. Switching at level 2 sounds like a good idea.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Between Khav having temp HP when bloodied automatically (which is why I always do ES on him last) and Sentinel having the option of temp HP, maybe I should retrain Energizing Strike for a more tactical at-will such as Ire Strike.

Ire Strike (no augment) automatically (no roll needed for Lan) grants an adjacent ally a melee basic attack to a target next to Lan as a free action. If it hits, the target has vulnerable 2 to all damage for a round (pretty good). At augment 1, if the melee basic hits the target has vulnerable psychic only 1+CHA mod (not so good). At augment 2, one ally within 5 can shift as a free action to a square adjacent to the target, make a melee basic, and if the attack hits does 1d8 extra damage as well as 1+CHA mod (=5) vulnerable to all damage for a round (very good).

Not sure we should give up energizing strike though, since the augment 1 and augment 2 versions are very good for extra healing when needed.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:55 am. »
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Speaking of which, you guys will hit level 2 after the completion of the next encounter.

Also, that Augment 1 is actually pretty awesome for your group. Kurvilis has ONLY psychic attacks right now.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Josh wrote
Also, that Augment 1 is actually pretty awesome for your group. Kurvilis has ONLY psychic attacks right now.


Good point! And as an illusion wizard, he will continue to have psyhic attacks and if some of us get psychic weapons even better.

If Energizing Strike is too good to give up, I could also retrain Focusing Strike for Ire Strike. It just means I'll have to get some feats that grant saves, but it might be a better alternative. The augment 1 ES I just used on Khav to bring him from death is pretty cool, and I can get items like healer's brooch that help further.

However, I also am thinking of retraining Wormhole Plunge for Battle something level 1 daily (can't remember the name). Josh, are you following the one thing only for retraining rule or more than one thing if it's a new source material or more than one thing in general?
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:22 am. »
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Posts: 7786
Here are my level 2 ideas for Lan (assuming Josh let's us retrain more than one thing into new source material).

1) New ability line-up: Str 10, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 18

2) Considering retraining Focused Strike at-will for Demoralizing Strike (maybe Ire Strike). Thoughts?

3) Considering retraining Wormhole Plunge daily for Battlborn Acuity or Implanted Suggestion. Thoughts?

4) Dimension Swap as level 2 utility, unless someone has a better suggestion.

5) Impending Victory as level 2 feat (+1 attack with at-wills against bloodied enemies, very good for augmentation classes that almost only use at-wills) OR Restful Healing OR Toughness OR Bolstering Mantle. Thoughts?

The reason I'm asking all of you for feedback is since it's a small party size and the Lan is our only healer. Some levels down the line, I might refocus my main weapon to a greatspear (+3 prof, 1d10 dam, reach) and be able to get Hafted Defense feat (+1 AC, +1 reflex when wielding a polearm or staff).
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Posts: 7786
I just thought of a way to (ab)use bolstering mantle feat. Here is the feat's text:

Bolstering Mantle
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Ardent, Ardent Mantle class feature
Benefit: Whenever you spend a healing surge, one ally within the radius of your Ardent Mantle can either gain 5 temporary hit points or make a saving throw.

During a battle, I would maybe use it once, but between battles when taking a short rest it could prep allies for the next encounter. For example, if Lan uses two healing surges to heal up during a short rest then Bolstering Mantle would give two allies 5 temp hp. Since temp hp remain until your next rest, it means those two allies would start the next battle with 5 temp hp. Thoughts? Should I take this feat for this reason, for the group, one for all, that sort of thing?
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Posts: 4627
Actually, it says whenever YOU use a healing surge, not you or an ally. And that only works if you immediately run into battle.

Also, since ardents were an unfinished class when we started, I am inclined to allow you to retrain more than normal. To make it fair to everyone, I will say you get 1 free retrain per level into new source material.

As far as ability scores go, I think that we should decide on something more robust, since that isn't a normal retrain. Maybe everyone can change their ability scores at level ups twice until level 4?
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Josh wrote
Actually, it says whenever YOU use a healing surge, not you or an ally. And that only works if you immediately run into battle.
<br><br>
Also, since ardents were an unfinished class when we started, I am inclined to allow you to retrain more than normal. To make it fair to everyone, I will say you get 1 free retrain per level into new source material.
<br><br>
As far as ability scores go, I think that we should decide on something more robust, since that isn't a normal retrain. Maybe everyone can change their ability scores at level ups twice until level 4?


Regarding bolstering mantle, in my example if Lan himself uses two healing surges during a short rest then two allies would get 5 temp hp I think. Also, the temp hp remain until the group takes another rest so even if we don't immediately get into battle it will persist as long as we don't take any rests.

To clarify, each PC gets two retrains every level? One into "old" source material and one into "new" source material? Are you limiting it to skills/feats/powers or can class features also be retrained? I like your idea about being able to switch abilitiy scores, especially as we play new classes with new source material arriving.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
My main point being with Bolstering Mantle...that it matters that YOU are using the healing surge. So, you are basically limited to your number of healing surges. In battle it actually seems HIGHLY situational (I suppose ardents are melee fighters, but if you do go with Reach, then it is even less worth it). As far as short rests are concerned, my feeling is that the intent is to give the temp HP only during an encounter, but I won't argue either way on it, because I don't foresee it being spammed in quite the way you think it might be.

As for the retrains, it would be one retrain into new source material, and one retrain the normal way (into new or old). Also, I think class features should count. When WOTC first did the retrain rules, there weren't many class features, so I don't think they even considered that as a possibility.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Yeah, I'm basing my scenario on how Lan has fared so far in the encounters. With our small party size and Ardent's being melee leaders, he goes through surges quite fast. Out of battle he generally wouldn't use more than two surges at a time I imagine. In battle, when he does heal, it's maybe nice to give allies some help in addition. Using a healing surge during battle as opposed to afterwards also becomes a tactical decision then (i.e. second wind Lan because an ally is low on HP or has a nasty condition). It's not as good as the improved inspiring word that Mal has though, where the healed PC also gets a saving throw. Also, the 5 temp hp is very nice at low levels, but doesn't scale at all, so likely be retrained out later on.

In any case, I'm not sure it's the best feat for him to take and still would like some feedback from Gary, Nathan, and Jonathan about what they want the group healer to choose.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:03 pm. »
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I'll play and take a look at those powers over the weekend. My initial thought is that Sentinel's MBA is very weak for a melee character. Maybe I need a feat to fix that. (Or WoTC need to give us an at-will that counts as a MBA. Even wis/cha clerics have one now, I believe). That puts a damper on the free attack idea somewhat. I'm fine with temp-HP being handed out. I rather like the mechanic as a leader.

I rather like Dimension Swap. One of Sentinel's stronger utility options at level 2 is Dimensional Warp. It's a CB 3 that lets me swap spots with an ally, or I can swap the location of two allies in the burst. It would give some serious positioning utility. If that's too much utility between us, I could retrain into something else. Still, there has been about one time per each fight that I really wanted to swap spots with Khav.

I like impending victory and bolstering mantle a lot. Restful healing looks nice, but I don't know how often it'll save our bacon. By level 6, it looks like a stronger feat to me, as it grants more guaranteed HP. It scales well too.


On Sentinel's front, Aegis vitality would grant the occasional temp HP, so it might be handy if Lan trains away from temp HP granting powers. We have people staying over, and I'm getting kicked off the comp so they can go to bed. more later this weekend.
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
I hear you on the lack of good MBA. Ardent's don't have MBA powers either and naturally low strength. Melee training charisma is the only way out for Lan.

I think both Lan and Sentinel getting the dimension utilities would give us good tactical positioning options. They're good for saving a fellow PC, an NPC ally, or even just switching with an ally into a flanking position.

I'm not sure Lan getting rid of his healing power (i.e. energizing strike) would be a good idea just because Sentinel might take aegis vitality. Aegis vitality only grants 3 temp hp, it only grants them to Sentinel, and only if the marked enemy does not attack Sentinel. Energizing strike is an at-will, grants 5 temp hp at level 2 (6 at level 4, 7 at level 6, 9 at level 8, etc) and has other healing aspects too in its augmented forms. It's too good of an at-will and while Sentinel has means of healing himself with warforged resolve, Khav and Kurvilis do not.

I was rather thinking of retraining focused strike (which grants saves) for another at-will, especially if I take bolstering mantle feat which can grant saves. Demoralizng strike would be my first pick. At augment 0, it debuffs 2 all defenses. At augment 1, it debuffs 1+con mod (3) will defense. At augment 2, it's a burst 1 attack and debufss 1+con all defenses.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
I am giving this build of Kurvilis one more level to try before retraining him into a psion. There are too few non-burst illusion powers, and given that all of you rush to flank, bursts are hard to do without taking you out as well.
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
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Posts: 7786
Jonathan Berg wrote
I am giving this build of Kurvilis one more level to try before retraining him into a psion. There are too few non-burst illusion powers, and given that all of you rush to flank, bursts are hard to do without taking you out as well.


Psion sounds cool, but if you're continuing with the wizard for now you might want to retrain to get the at-will Winged Horde. It's area burst 1, range 10, enemies only, vs WILL, 1d6+int mod, and hit enemies can't make opportunity attacks until end of your next turn. Very good for when we rush to flank which we'll always be doing and very good for tactical repositioning for all of us. It doesn't have the illusion keyword, so you can't use our orb, but that's a minor thing compared to it's usefulness with our 3:1 melee:ranged group IMO.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:43 am. »
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Viktor wrote
I'm not sure Lan getting rid of his healing power (i.e. energizing strike) would be a good idea just because Sentinel might take aegis vitality. Aegis vitality only grants 3 temp hp, it only grants them to Sentinel, and only if the marked enemy does not attack Sentinel.
I completely agree. I was in a hurry. I would only consider that feat if Lan dropped energizing strike. It's not even on my current list of desired feats, but I was thinking that it would soften the blow of losing out on temp HP granting. Personally, I really like your at-wills as they do what leaders want to do: help with damage and grant saves. Focusing strike is probably the weaker of the two at heroic. If you were going to trade it out for either of the other at-will powers, I wouldn't complain.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
So, each person can list how their PCs in Eberron are affected by the massive overhaul WotC just pulled. Then we can discuss what to do about it.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
I actually didn't notice anything to affect Kurvilis.
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
As I just posted in response to people's comments about the update, I might retrain away Wormhole Plunge. I rather liked the idea of Lan creating a wormhole amidst a bunch of enemies and then being able to reposition them all. I had previously read in forums how people thought to abuse the power by causing an enemy to endlessly take falling damage until it dies, but decided that was plain stupid and not intended. I also am choosing Eladrin chainmail in part because two powers would benefit from the teleporting boost (wormhole plunge and dimension swap).

Josh, if it's okay with you to ignore the update then I'll keep the power. It makes sense that an enemy can only be teleported once during its turn and we should keep it that way. However, I would ask that any number of enemies can be teleported in a round. Like you had commented, it's not a sustain minor power and therefore isn't overpowered, merely tactically fun and controllerish.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Tue May 04, 2010 12:54 pm. »
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Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
I'm going to need to take a close look at my build for Sentinel. Enlarge Spell was a vital key component in the build. Without it, I might just drop the wizard multiclass idea. That, or we could drop the wizard requirement for the power selections. They complained about low damage control wizard powers and strikers. Maybe they could have thrown swordmages a bone on that one...

Viktor, your use of Wormhole plunge was balanced and reasonable. I'd vote to keep it as you have been using it if the group is willing to deviate from the WoTC rules as written revised standard.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Yeah, I am pretty fine with the old Plunge rules. I think the whole thing could be solved by them just declaring that teleporting must occur in the same plane OR onto solid ground. That allows you to teleport something off a cliff, or up or down stairs, but prevents falling damage from teleporting straight up and prevents recursive teleporting falling damage.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Thanks Josh. I totally agree about the teleporting rules. They've clearly defined how pushes/pulls/slides must be in 2D (in these new updates actually), except in the case of flying creatures and within water. If you can't launch somebody into the air with a push 5 power, then you shouldn't be able to teleport them either maybe.

In our second battle when I used wormhole plunge at the tower I contemplated teleporting Lan up onto the nearby hill for some defensive positioning, which would have been a 3D teleport. It never even occurred to me to teleport enemies straight up to cause falling damage. It's a way to insta-kill minions I suppose.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)

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