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Strategy and Tactics

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They do require squeezing at points.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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re: Nasty situation

Sentinel can swap positions with either Khav or Lan, or he can swap both of their positions. If I free Khav, Kurvilis might be able to free Lan with his sliding at-will. Thoughts? I'm tempted to mark blue, use either teleportation option, and then use my second wind.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
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I would say tele-swap with Lan and then attack blue if only that we are then focusing fire on the drake that is already damage. Lan can't swap positions since he use his teleport power in the mega-trap-room and we didn't short rest. Khav also has the better skill values to escape a grab a think, and then there's the phantom bolt idea from Kurvilis.

Edit: Did I really type this sentence replete with errors? Too tired. Too much baking.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:08 am. »
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Yeah, Khav is pretty good at escaping grabs with his skills. Don't worry about him.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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I had not thought about this before (I don't have any teleporting characters), but it came up this time: can you stand up as a free action on a teleport. My inkling is no, but I am open to interpretation that changes that. We have three teleporters in the group, so I would like input before I pose some ideas.

Also, I have had some concerns with the new Magic Missile (no attack roll, therefore autodamage...and not a tiny amount at that). Here they are: you can do damage to an enemy no matter what conditions are applied to you excepting ones that prevent you from taking standard actions; you do not take PENALTIES for conditions, lacking LoS/LoE, cover, concealment, etc; you can kill ANY minion in a single standard action. I do not want to nerf the power at all, but I would like some feedback on how to make it so that it isn't inherently overpowered.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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We allow the teleport-stand in Scales of War.

As for Magic Missile, I don't see it as overpowered. You can't crit with it, and all the various feats and items that add bonus damage to your damage rolls don't work, as there is no roll, it's flat damage.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Are there any other powers that autohit, though? That itself seems overpowered to me, especially as concerns minions. And in one sense, it is always a crit (always max damage)...it just doesn't gain any crit bonus damage.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Well, by "max damage," you mean 2+Int, which is less than any at-will does. It also has no rider effects like a push or slow or anything, like other at wills, and is single target.

Honestly, I only see it being good in two situations - minions, and enemies you know are REALLY close to dying. Which are actually the same basic thing, really. ;)
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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I'm fine with the teleport and stand ruling if that's how we've done it before.

Regarding MM. It's a balanced at-will. Yes, it autohits and all that and seems too good, but with a pimped out wizard it can only do max 11 damage with +3 weapon and 6 int mod throughout heroic tier (and then max 15 with a +5 weapon and 8 int mod in paragon). The opportunity cost is a more damaging spell that turn that typically has some effect attached and attacks multiple enemies.

Compare that to Geen's twin strike, which can do max damage of 11 per attack (so 22 if both max out), double chance for critting, then adding the crit damage. Of course he has to hit, so there's that.

I think MM is nice for having an RBA when the need arises, obviously great for minions (but we only know it's a minion after an initial hit), and mostly going to seem "too good" in early heroic tier only. Having said that, MM really comes into it's own if you choose to also get Wizard's Fury level 1 daily which allows you to use it as a minor action for the entire encounter. Basically, for one battle, the wizard becomes a better striker than the ranger with twin strike. One auto-hit and one other standard action attack power per turn.

Is magic missile a game-breaking spell? Maybe. Depends. Definitely if the DM uses mostly high-level minions in later tiers and the big, nasty, five-story dragon gets killed by one energy bolt. However, I feel other spells constantly have more game-breaking potential such as most teleportation or portal spells and powers/feats that grant use skill bonuses for an entire party (FYI, there exists one that ardents can take to make mincemeat of any perception checks by any PC ever).
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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One other thought about MM. I think, it being a ranged attack, that all LOS/LOE rules do apply. If you can't see it, you can't hit it. If there's a wall in your way, even a transparent one, then you can't shoot through it.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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I think the main issue with MM was some wizard ability that let you cast it as a minor action for the rest of the encounter. That would turn a low damage spell into something to worry about mechanics wise. Also, ignoring everything but line of effect seems a bit odd. I'd only worry about things if Jon breaks the game with it somehow.

There have been auto-minion poppers before. Sentinel does auto damage with his daily, wizards had flaming orb(sphere?), and there was a warlock combo back in the early days of 4e that let you kill an infinate number of minions in a turn, so long as they were within some teleport range.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
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I also seem to recall Wizard's Fury being nerfed, but can't remember the specifics.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Just as an aside, I have used MM twice so far, once as a readied action since the autohit was nice, and once when it was the only power with a range I needed (it is range 20). Other than that, I have used my other at wills.
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
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Gary wrote
I also seem to recall Wizard's Fury being nerfed, but can't remember the specifics.


The wizard's fury nerf took it down to one use of magic missile as a minor action per turn.

As Jonathan points out, he doesn't use magic missile that often anyhow. Probably because of its high opportunity cost. Take his last turn this morning as an example. Much better to attack two enemies, go for a 6-15 damage range, chance to immobilize them, and chance for crit rolls. Yes, it looks like he may have missed both enemies (and I'm not sure he had LOS/LOE on red orc), but the question with MM is always "what could I do that's better?" and the answer is usually everything else.

Comparing it again to twin strike for rangers. It's not until much later levels where the ranger is less likely to use twin strike in favor of powerful other attacks that have effect riders. Not so with wizards. who have neat multi-enemy spells with control effects right from level 1.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:27 am. »
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Agree. If you're looking for overpowered at wills, Twin Strike and Magic Weapon are at the top of the list. MM isn't even on my radar. Plus, mages don't even pick MM, its a default class feature.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Exactly, it's so good even WoTC felt the need to make it mandatory. And Twin-Strike isn't overpowered, every other Ranger at-will just sucks. ;)
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
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FWIW, I know Jon doesn't use it (and I think he doesn't particularly care about the power, but it is there, so he uses it when he has no other option). Does blocking LoS really block something like MM? Blindness, which blocks LoS, doesn't stop attacks. I think the power is DEFINITELY fairer if it must have LoS/LoE, but I can still see its abuse. Like I said, I don't want to nerf it, I am mostly concerned about its minion popping as an at-will. I read somewhere about someone giving minions HP equal to level, which I MAY consider at some point, but you guys aren't fighting anything that MM wouldn't kill in one hit right now even so, so that is moot. I won't do anything like that without long consideration and a public comment period, etc. ;)

Anyone else want to put in about the teleport (which was really the main purpose of the post)? I know Gary said that SoW has the policy of a Free Action Stand, which I was unaware of. My initial thought is that it seems off to me, although mechanistically I can see it feasible in some cases. As an Immediate Interrupt/Reaction to getting hit, for instance, I would definitely say no (you are more focused on getting out of dodge than anything else), but what about the other cases? Also, we have two powers that have teleport swaps. Do those allow both PCs to stand? Just the person using the power? Just the other person?
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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I have seen it say immobilized at some point (I think an errata did it). Maybe they changed it back. Regardless, I think it does need to be discussed regarding the shift powers that you guys (mainly Khav) have.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:33 pm. »
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Viktor, Sentinel's at 14 HP, and he has a surge value of 10. If you can heal him and still keep him bloodied for this turn, I can squeeze some free healing in addition to some THP out of my racial power. Then again, the Captian might miss and grant Sentinel 6 THP too...
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
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nmathew wrote
Viktor, Sentinel's at 14 HP, and he has a surge value of 10. If you can heal him and still keep him bloodied for this turn, I can squeeze some free healing in addition to some THP out of my racial power. Then again, the Captian might miss and grant Sentinel 6 THP too...


I assume you're talking about warforged resolve that will grant you 5 thp and also 5 hp when bloodied, along with a saving throw. I recall you've asked me to delay healing Sentinel once or twice before for this reason. I sense that you really want to make use of this power, even if it's at the cost of better healing to put you in safer position.

I'm a little confused as to what you want me to do with Lan as leader then. Naturally I can choose not to heal Sentinel with a surge or or surge+ until after he uses warforged resolve, but then he'll be more likely to die which in turn will mean the rest of the party is more likely to be attacked.

I could try to give you thp only, but that's also less (5 thp) than a surge type power I have, assuming I hit with an attack (and it also negates part of your warforged resolve). You would not get 6 thp from the captain missing unless Sentinel is adjacent to Lan. The other option is to use the energizing strike, augment 1 power, and give Sentinel 4 hp, again very little and I have to hit first.

I'm a little concerned about what expectations you, and the rest of the group have of Lan as the healer (Khav also has a bloodied thp power, although his actually CAN be made useless if I've granted him thp, so I choose him last for thp). My thoughts were that I should keep everyone from dying and, once my healing powers run out, you'll still have warforged resolve to resort to during prolonged battles. Do you guys want me to hold off on healing until your racial powers are used?

Also, I added reparation apparatus to my wishlist to further improve my healing of Sentinel (grants an extra 2d6 hp when I grant a surge use to constructs with and grants an extra 2d6 thp when I grant thp to constructs with encounter or daily powers). I thought this would be good to keep our defender up and running to defend us, but it would make it even less likely for you to use warforged resolve early during any battle. Let's please resolve this soon.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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If we ignore situational issues, I see two general options for using warforged resolve. I can burn warforged resolve (WFR) to get the TPH very early in battles, as that will make certain I get some benefit from it, or I can hold onto it as a reserve power in case a battle becomes prolonged. I'm leaning toward keeping it in reserve, as Sentinel has a decent reserve of surges to draw upon. If Sentinel is down HP and there are several enimies in the init order between him and healing, I'd use it then too. Sentinel was the first 4e character (outside a delve) I played for any length. Josh always acted shocked when I planned to use WFR while not bloodied, because I would miss out on the free healing. I think that colored how I use the power.

Here's my suggestion after reading your post and thinking about things for a few minutes. Heal Sentinel as you wish. I won't ever complain about you keeping him standing. Having the high AC defender up and active is much more important than squeezing a few points of free healing out. Leader is a difficult and sometimes thankless job, and I certainly don't want to make it more difficult by having you worry about me wanting optimal use of a racial power. I'm over it, and I'm ignoring Josh's protests from here until forever. :twisted:

I'll use WFR if I need a saving throw to shrug off a nasty ongoing damage effect, if I see the opportunity to get maximum use from it because Sentinel starts his turn bloodied, if it's late in the battle and you're low/out on healing options, or if I feel that I need the HP boost for the next round because Sentinel might get mobbed before someone else can heal him.

How does that sound?

TL;DR: Heal Sentinel as you want. I won't ever complain about getting healed. WFR will be generally be used as a reserve and situational power for longer fights.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
« Last edit by nmathew on Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:43 am. »
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As for Temp HP, as long as Khav does not already have them, then any given to him can not be wasted. Say he's above bloodied and you give him THP. Those THP have to hacked off before he can get to bloodied and get his THP from his racial feature. No danger of redundant THP there. And if he's already used his racial feature and burned through those THP, more THP are great.

As for Ardent Surge usage on Khav, I generally prefer to let a PC get bloodied before being healed, since you heal surge plus a good chunk. If I'm not down two full surges (i.e., bloodied), then getting an Ardent Surge may heal too much and run over my max HP. So I'd say generally to let Khav get bloodied (and get his THP while he's at it) before Ardent Surging him. This would be a little different with a leader who doesn't heal as well (say, a runepriest or a low-Wis artificer), but is my general guideline.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Not sure this is the right place for it; this is in response to how evasive strike works (from the online compendium). The shifting can be before or after the attack. It's a great power, one I used for many levels with my ranger in the Scales of War campaign.


Evasive Strike
You confound enemies by weaving through the battlefield unscathed as you make your attacks.
Encounter Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon
Target: One creature
Special: You can shift a number of squares equal to 1 + your Wisdom modifier either before or after the attack.
Attack: Strength vs. AC (melee) or Dexterity vs. AC (ranged)
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage (melee) or 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage (ranged).
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)

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