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Introduction

Moderators: Josh, Michael Doss.

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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Hello all. I am planning on running an Eberron campaign shortly after the next year begins (coinciding strangely with Viktor's game, it seems). The game will start by using the published adventures for Eberron (1st level adventure in the campaign setting and Seekers of the Ashen Crown for 2nd to 5th level) and then after that I have a few ideas that I will try to flesh out in the 6 months it will take to get there. Right now, this is really just a notice that the game will take place in a few weeks. I will also create some threads that your knowledge of the world and probably send out the Player's Guide PDF to the players.

As a brief intro to Eberron, it is a bit different than the typical DnD setting. It is dark, deals with intrigue and focuses a lot on swashbuckling-like adventure. The major races are almost completely altered (except for maybe humans and dwarves) for their culture, and so I would like all of the characters to have a very Eberron-style background. Power groups consist of the various national governments, dragonmark houses (think of guilds), and to a lesser extent, the religions. In fact, other than some very cultish religions, that aspect is almost entirely in the background. The technology and culture is sort of a Renaissance-style. Spies are abundant as are many shadow groups that are trying to control the world. The campaign takes place just 4 years after The Last War ended after about 100 years, and so everyone is still suspicious of each other. Warforged were created during the time and the war was ended with a devastating Hiroshima like event.

Anyways, that's enough of an intro for now. I'll get some of the more detailed information up tomorrow and I will probably put more up over the next couple of weeks.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
« Last edit by Josh on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:17 am. »
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Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
I'm definitely interested in participating. I'll mostly be out of contact from the end of December through January 4th, but I should be stable after that. I look forward to the additional information.
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Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Just posting to say I'm interested, of course.

I've already been talking to Josh about this campaign, and lean towards a human fighter-barbarian hybrid.

Loose backstory is a tribal human from the Shadow Marches who left home due to some primal omen, ended up joining the army of Breland and fighting in the war, and is now exploring the world searching for a sign of that omen (which needs fleshing out).

Mechanically, he has high Str and Con, and hits things really hard with a big hammer. :)

We'll see if that's what I stick with by the time the game starts...
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Hmm. I like this game possibility too, but I dunno if I can do two new characters, so I'll have to think about it. I find the Eberron world very intriguing. Count me in as a 'maybe'.
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Hedoni Midartis - Eladrin Wizard, Scales of War
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Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
If you have room, count me in as always. If I end up going with an assassin in the PoL game, I was thinking some sort of controller maybe for this one? Gnome Illusionist Wizard is top on the list currently, but Josh, you can tell me if that fits.
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Gnome Illusionist is perfect, actually. The gnomes even have their own nation in Eberron. When I said that the races are almost all different from typical DnD, I didn't mean that you can't have a character that is a stereotypical, say, wood elf. It is just that you will have a very different background than the normal elves. I am hoping that the info that I post will provide ideas for background.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Lol! I'm basically laughing at myself, since I too am always eager to play and create new characters. Even within 24 hours of declaring my own campaign. Incorrigible.

Some character ideas for me would be storm warden, druid (summoning type or life-giving type), beastmaster ranger, or invoker.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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I have decided I will absolutely positively play one of the following two concepts:

1 - The human fighter-barbarian hybrid wielding a huge hammer outlined above.

2 - A half-orc fighter-rogue hybrid, background to be determined, built around the tempest fighter class feature, clad in leather armor and a short sword in each hand.

Either character will be melee and about 2/3rd striker and 1/3rd defender. So, everyone else can plan accordingly. We'll still need a leader, and could use a dedicated defender.

Jon - gnome illusionist wizard (controller)
Gary - human fighter/barbarian or half-orc fighter-rogue (striker/defender)
Viktor - storm warden (defender), druid (controller), beastmaster ranger (striker), or invoker (controller)
Nathan - ???
Mike - ???

Based on what Jon and I are playing, Viktor's warden idea would be the best fit of his four concepts.

If Nathan's Delve shaman is a test run and he's enjoying him, then with a warden from Viktor as well, that'd cover all the roles.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
And with that,

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Kurvilis, level 1
Gnome, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Deception

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 16.


AC: 14 Fort: 11 Reflex: 14 Will: 16
HP: 22 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +11, Religion +9, Diplomacy +9, History +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering, Endurance +1, Heal, Insight, Intimidate +4, Nature, Perception, Stealth +3, Streetwise +4, Thievery +1, Athletics -1

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Gnome Phantasmist

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Phantom Bolt
Wizard at-will 1: Illusory Ambush
Wizard encounter 1: Grasping Shadows
Wizard daily 1: Phantom Chasm
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Horrid Whispers

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Implement, Orb, Potion of Healing (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Traveler's Camouflage, Secret Page, Unseen Servant
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
I suppose I should mention some of the rules now. First off, we will be doing the post within 1 day of your turn gives you +1 to all d20 rolls and if you do not post within 3 days, I will have someone else take your character's turn. If you miss your turn once, the next time your turn comes up, you have one day to do it. Obviously, there can be exceptions on a letting me know basis, but this should at least keep the game flow up a bit. Depending on how this works, I may change it to 2 days instead of 3.

I have also been thinking of some house rules that I have read around a bit and I would like your input. One of them is having regular increases to attack and defenses that account for item bonuses and the Expertise feats. In this case, Expertise would be granted automatically and items would simply have their properties. This would allow for a smoother increase in these bonuses, but it might make the items a little less interesting. Alternatively, I could just grant you all Expertise and you get +1/2/3 to attack at level 5/15/25.

I am considering everything in the published books fair game (modified by errata as necessary), and any other 4e stuff (such as from the magazines and test) is probably allowable, but must be approved by me.

I am definitely going to use some of the material from the 3.5 Eberron Campaign Setting (the fluff is almost identical and it goes in more detail in some areas), and that includes some feats, items, etc as appropriate. This includes Aberrant Dragonmarks, of which there are a few listed in the 4e Player's Guide. In the 3.5 ECS, the Aberrant marks often let you cast a spell or something, and I may allow that upon approval. My thought for this might be that you can take a level 1 at-will from an arcane class that you can use as an encounter power, or something.

On the subject of Dragonmarks, these are VERY much a part of a character's background if you take one. If you take a recognized mark (like, say, the Mark of Warding), you are expected to be a part of the House that mark is part of (I will have House info later). If you are have a mark and do not want to be of a House, then once the House (or any House) finds out, you will be seeked out and attempted to be brought into the fold. If you are of an atypical race for that mark, the House (and all other Houses, in fact), will seek you out and may try to eliminate you IF they think you are a danger, or bring you into the House if not. If you are of a race that does not commonly get marks (Tiefling, Dragonborn, etc), everyone will be a bit freaked out. A Warforged with a dragonmark would probably be the only one in the entire world and may send everyone that pays attention to marks into a panic. If you have an Aberrant Mark, you may be seeked out for elimination by the Houses. This is not to dissuade you at all, I think there are some great characters that can be had dealing with any of these situations, I just wanted to warn you before you took one of these powerful feats. Oh, and you can add a dragonmark at any level, with first being the most obvious, but dragonmarks cannot really be removed, and I would only consider it possible if we work out an extensive plot related to it.

Character backgrounds should be Eberron backgrounds, but I am willing to consider PHB2 backgrounds as well. I am also trying to think of other ways to incorporate your backgrounds into the characters (to reward characters that tie into the world well). One thought of mine was that any group you are part of (you may be of House Deneith and Karrnath, for instance), I will roll for you (or you can), the various skill checks to know more about your nation/House/other organization than the typical Common Knowledge. Maybe also, a skill bonus when dealing with people from your culture?
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Oh, two more things:

Having a small crit/flub effect. In either case the effect hits the target of the attack and would last until the end of the attacker's next turn. It would be something like a +1 bonus to attack or defense for someone you flubbed against (their confidence was boosted) or a -1 to attack or defense for someone you critted (the momentum of the battle has swung against them). Other things could be +1 or -1 to damage or HP, or something. I would want something small and to affect the target for about 1 turn. Thoughts?

Also, an injury effect. This is inspired a bit by Dragon Age: Origins. In the game, when a character drops in battle, they cannot get up until the battle is finished (I would not include this aspect). When the character does get up, they have an injury (broken arm, concussion, etc). You can also buy really cheap items called injury kits that heal the injuries immediately (they cannot be healed by magical means). My idea is that when you fall unconscious (or maybe when you fail a death save), you take an injury...and it would be random, but possibly -1 to an ability at random (so, on average a -.5 to some skills/attacks/damage), -1 to speed (broken leg or something). If this was included, then injury kits would be reasonably abundant and cheap, but I might require an extended rest or something. I haven't fully fleshed it out, so I would like thoughts, including ways to make it something you guys would not mind being included.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
I do not like the idea of doing away with magic equipment bonuses. Takes a bunch of the fun out of getting items.

I'm alright with removing the Expertise feats and granting +1/+2/+3 at 5/15/25 if that's something others are interested in.

I'm not a fan of house rules. I trust the pros to publish solid rules that have been playtested. If something is found to be a problem in play, I'm okay with addressing it, but I don't like just changing a bunch of stuff right out of the gate.

House rules make it hard for people to all be on the same page. They also, if they affect the PC's themselves, make it harder to use the incredibly useful Character Builder.

I'd be very careful of porting over any crunch from 3.5e without a very close look at if there are other ways to reflect what you want with existing 4e rules. For example, if you want aberrant dragonmarks to have more potential effects, maybe steal the mechanics for spellscars from the FRPG.

I do endorse full access to all Dragon magazine material. It's official material. It's conveniently in the CB. It really adds a lot to make certain options more interesting and playable, since by design it covers things not offered in dead tree format. Dragon is also designed by the same authors as the books.

I'm happy to see Dragonmarks mean something in the game, and I think a small bonus to know things about your PC's affiliated groups is alright.

PHB2/EPG/AP/DP/PP style backgrounds are cool, as I've said elsewhere. I don't see a reason non-EPG backgrounds need to be excluded. You could be from the Lhazaar Principalities and have the background Occupation - Mariner just fine, or be from Thrane and have one of the divine backgrounds, or from the Eldeen reaches and have a primal background. Eberron has non-House, non-geographic backgrounds already (Enlisted Soldier and Commissioned Officer, to name two), so more backgrounds like that can hardly hurt. You can also have multiple backgrounds (the CB allows you to choose up to 6). You can only get he benefit of one, but the rest still flesh out your character. If you want to have backgrounds of Karrnath, Enlisted Soldier, and Geography - Forest, that's cool, and you can only mechanically benefit from one of them.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Don't like the crit/flub idea, and don't like the wound idea. Seems to complicate things for no real benefit, and just makes for more stuff to track.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Jul 2008
Posts: 5245
First of all, I'm not sure I'm going to play this campaign. But there is no way in Hell I'd play in a game with these cockamamie rules.
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Dungeon Master - Scales of War
Edeya - Githzerai Seeker - Points of Light
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Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
I agree with Gary about most of it. Items are one of the most fun parts of the game, and I wouldn't take anything away from that. 3.5 rules are not meant for 4e play. Some items might transfer, but I would be careful about feats and such. For backgrounds, it doesn't matter to me, and like Gary said, if we can all take 3, maybe we just take the benefit from the Eberron one? I am also ok with the expertise feat turning into an automatic at 5/15/25.

The crit/flub and wound ideas I am not as against. I agree that they complicate things, but I have never been against a little more realism, provided it is done in a way that doesn't mess with the gameplay and flow.

For dragonmarks, I don't really know what they are/benefit/drawback/how a character takes one. Someone want to explain these?
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
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Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
Ooooh... Aberrant Mark of Terror looks like a blast for my gnome!
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Plotwise, Dragonmarked houses each control some aspect of trade that relates to their dragonmark. So, there's a mark of passage that a house of half-elves has, and they run the lightning rail and airships. Each mark is common to a certain race.

Mechanically, in 4e each dragonmark is a feat (you can only have one dragonmark). They give you a boost to something and let you learn rituals related to that feat without the Ritual Caster feat.

Aberrant dragonmarks belong to no house and have different effects. There are three default aberrant marks in 4e. This is why I suggested FR Spellscars for more options if Josh wants to expand aberrant marks.

As for flubs and crits... A natural 1 is already a miss. That's flub enough. A crit already has extra damage from a magic weapon/implement and high crit weapons. That's enough crit effect for me.

Wound rules I've read about in other games often lead to what's called a "death spiral." You take a wound, so you aren't as effective, so you get hurt more and take more wounds, so you aren't as effective, so you... and then you're dead.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
So, Emily, how do you really feel? ;)

I still would like more input, as I don't expect Nathan to contribute to this thread until his thesis is done this week.

In the meantime, thank you for the feedback. I never said I was set on them, I was just considering and mulling over things. One thing I really hadn't thought about is how it would affect the Character Builder, since I only have the demo version at the moment (I will probably get the full version once my class is over). That means I haven't specifically paid attention too much to how the rules work with that. As such, I think it IS a good suggestion to stay within the Char Builder for powers/feats/etc (the system that takes out item plusses is really just to smooth the plusses out more). The spellscars are probably a good suggestion for Aberrant Marks, but, like I said, I don't have a ton of CB experience, so I haven't really looked at them yet.

As for the crit/flub, I understand, but a 2 or 19 is a miss or hit almost as often as a crit or a flub, so I don't really see how that matters. As far as the bonus effects for crits go, that is nice, but I have also always liked flub tables. I think an injury or dropping a weapon or something would be WAY too much, which is why I thought of the small effect it grants to the target. Finally, I agree that injuries could easily be a problem and that is the thing I am most wary about. I like the idea of it, but if it is unbalanced it is the type of thing that can get way out of hand REALLY fast. While writing my previous post, I actually found this: wound system (post 16 if it doesn't actually take you there). It is a little severe, but it grants the player a choice to take a wound (including when you do not have a surge available). This can let you stay standing in a battle at the expense of having to fix yourself up long term. Instead of being a death spiral, it might become the instigator of more heroic action that turns the tide in a critical battle. Then there could be a ritual or something that helps you recover.

And thinking about the heroic action, I remember that there was something that Alex had in the campaign he was going to run. It basically was, if you tried to do something REALLY cool, you could get a +2 bonus for the action. The type of action for that would be something akin to Ravenblade leaping off of (I think it was Daggoth's) back onto the top of a crypt to take a hack at a ghoul or some such. This type of behavior is especially perfect for a Valenar elf.

As far as the Dragonmarked Houses go, I will get their info up, probably tomorrow, and I will try to get a summary of the world that's shorter and more broad than the knowledge posts I have.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Oh, and as far as backgrounds go, I didn't even realize that AP/DP/PP HAD backgrounds (again, I don't CB a whole hell of a lot). I definitely support as many backgrounds as a person wants, since, like Gary mentioned, it is all fluff, but I would like at least one Eberron background in there.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
I guess it's my turn to throw in my two cents.

In general, I think we should be very cautious when introducing house rules. It's one thing to have house rule interpretations that affect players and enemies equally and easy to remember and track (e.g. any movement, forced or voluntary, into a zone triggers the effect), but something else when we introduce changes that may drastically affect play. Also, keep in mind that any rule changes or interpretations should first and foremost increase our enjoyment of the game, even if it's at the cost of realism. This is high fantasy we're playing and I for one am not interested in realism. If it's realism we want, then we should be playing a different system, such as GURPS where you have 9 HP and die after one or two hits from anyone.

4E is very much focused on tactical encounters, so I think changing rules regarding critical hits and flubs or introducing wound effects would drastically change the flow of battle in ways we probably can't completely predict without extensive play-testing. Instead of heroic high fantasy escapades, we'll end up having to be more cautious to avoid wounds and be even more at the mercy of chance. Like Gary said, death spirals will occur and fear of those will change our role-playing. It already sucks enough when you roll a 1 on your daily power, having hoped to turn the tables, and can't retry that power for several encounters until an extended rest. I've played a tabletop RPG with a wound system before and our group gradually house-ruled the wound system to make it less and less dire and intrusive, until we finally decided to actually get rid of it.

Also, I've played dozens of computer and video role-playing games (including Dragon Age: Origins) and excessive item management is an annoying aspect of many of them. Yes, in Dragon Age characters get wounds and to heal them, the programmers introduced an additional healing item called injury kit. But what for? It just means having to buy them, keep an eye on them, pause the game to use them, etc.

Which is maybe the main reason the suggested crit/flub and wound system ideas aren't so great. It will increase the things that players and the DM have to track. Mostly the DM actually, because you'll have to track all of the players plusses and minuses, as well as all the enemies AND you'll have to consistently keep us up to date on which enemy has what effect currently going on. 4E already has enough marks, status effects, temp things to make it hard to keep track of.

I cannot comment on the use of 3.5E in 4E since I'm not familiar with the previous version.

The importance of Dragonmarks sounds very fun and intriguing. I guess it wouldn't be so easy to play a Warforged Stormheart Warden with a Mark of Storms then.

I like your idea about rewarding improvised actions, as long as you only ever give rewards and not punishment and don't apply it to enemies. It should increase fun for the group after all. However, it will always be somewhat subjective for the DM to decide if s/he likes a particular action or speech or not.

I would prefer to leave the item rules as they are. As others have said, treasures are fun.

I'm not sure I entirely understand the suggestion about weapon expertise. What are you trying to achieve? Is it to have an automatic focused expertise feat for every character that nobody has to use a feat slot for?

Well, in summary, I'm against most of the house rule suggestions (crit/flub and wounds) because I think they will increase tedious tracking, introduce more chance into what should be tactical engagements, and because realism was never the goal of dungeons and dragons I think.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Posts: 4627
Thanks for the comments Viktor. I absolutely don't want to make the game harder or less fun, but as such, I AM always interested in trying new things that could make it more fun.

I think the point that Gary made about "just use what is in the Character Builder" is a good one, especially since this is all online play and we are making character sheets from the CB. If it was a tabletop game, it would probably be easier to incorporate some of the racial/background feats that the 3.5e game has, but it really just makes things ridiculously complicated. If anything IS incorporated in a way like that, the FR spellscars would probably be good (still haven't been able to look at them) and maybe looking at the flavor of the feats to give players an idea of the things that race/nationality would do. There is simply no easy way to really incorporate past materials into 4e in the PbP format until WotC throws it into the CB.

The free expertise feat is a common house rule that many people feel fixes the math of attacking monsters at a higher level. In addition, expertise is such a solid and broadly useable feat that many people feel their characters HAVE to take it in order to be able to contribute to encounters, and that it limits choices in making your character. Because of this, and the fact that I like options, I think it is a good idea to remove THAT particular option by giving it to everyone automatically. It also removes a possible need to retrain a feat if you LATER decide to switch weapon or implement types for some reason. One question I have for Gary, though...what does this do for classes that use Weapons AND Implements? Do you get expertise for both? The way I understand it is that you simply get +1/+2+3 for reaching 5/15/25. It seems like it would be especially advantageous for those classes that do use both.

The bonus for improvised actions WOULD only ever be a bonus and would NEVER be given to enemies. It actually follows a little bit from 3.5e Eberron, where they used Action Points that would allow you to add 1d6 to a d20 roll. Hopefully this idea would encourage people to do more interesting things and have more fun with their characters.

As far as the wound system goes, that is basically right. Thinking about it a bit, it is more of a system designed to make you pay attention to all 4 of your party members and make sure that you don't go easy on moderate threats. And since you recharge all of your powers entirely between encounters, there is really no reason not to. In DnD, however, something like that becomes either a death spiral or a bookkeeping problem. The wound system I linked to above, is interesting, I think, though, because it is entirely at the player's discretion to use it whenever they want. It is designed to pull your ass out of the fire in an extremely tight spot IF you think you need it, at a penalty in the more long term. As alterations to that system IF it would be implemented, I think that the gut wound damage would need to be reduced and I don't think I would include the potential for permanent wound effects (as that would just become a slower death spiral. If you don't want to feel like reading that post on ENWorld, it works kind of like a disease. It basically lets you heal a surge of HP at the expense of taking a wound. A wound decreases your maximum surges/day (until the wound is gone) and has an effect based on the wound that a save can end (such as dazed, slowed, OGD). Also, while you have the wound, you can aggravate it after a save (by, say, flubbing a d20 roll). During an extended rest, you can attempt to save with a Heal check (and allies can aid you), and it takes three successes to fully recover, giving you the maximum surge back and removing the wound condition. In addition, it can be removed with a Ritual similar to Remove Affliction. What makes this interesting to me as a wound system is that it is entirely optional for the player and confers an immediate advantage that may make it worth it to take the wound.

As far as the crit/flub thing goes, I like morale aspects to games (or momentum shifting or whatever). I wouldn't want it to be large bonus, and that is why I thought of as a +1/-1 bonus to the target of the attack. 4e DnD already has things of this flavor (terror weapons have a daily fear power that grants -2 to target's defenses; inspired belligerence grants all allies CA and bonus damage). The idea is to make this a very small very temporary bonus, that I don't think would change a lot, but could maybe make a battle more of a seesaw (which, granted 4e is already really good at).
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
Just to chime in on the spellscar thing, I will be running a FR game, probably starting in summer or so, so that would probably be a part of that game.
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
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Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
I don't feel the need to re-argue my points, but I will address these issues:

Josh wrote
The free expertise feat is a common house rule that many people feel fixes the math of attacking monsters at a higher level. In addition, expertise is such a solid and broadly useable feat that many people feel their characters HAVE to take it in order to be able to contribute to encounters, and that it limits choices in making your character. Because of this, and the fact that I like options, I think it is a good idea to remove THAT particular option by giving it to everyone automatically. It also removes a possible need to retrain a feat if you LATER decide to switch weapon or implement types for some reason. One question I have for Gary, though...what does this do for classes that use Weapons AND Implements? Do you get expertise for both? The way I understand it is that you simply get +1/+2+3 for reaching 5/15/25. It seems like it would be especially advantageous for those classes that do use both.


Dragon magazine introduced Focused Expertise, which grants you +1 to hit with a single weapon when used as a weapon OR implement, instead of an entire weapon type. So, for example, a swordmage doesn't need to take Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blades) AND Implement Expertise (Heavy Blades). They just take Focused Expertise (Longsword).

It's not quite as simple for classes that have different implements and weapons (paladins, avengers, and clerics all use holy symbols and weapons, for example), but in that case, I don't think granting such characters both Weapon Expertise (Whatever) and Implement Expertise (Holy Symbol) would be game-breaking. They would still need to spend / request via wishlist two different types of attack items, which is the bigger hindrance in my view.

Josh wrote
The bonus for improvised actions WOULD only ever be a bonus and would NEVER be given to enemies. It actually follows a little bit from 3.5e Eberron, where they used Action Points that would allow you to add 1d6 to a d20 roll. Hopefully this idea would encourage people to do more interesting things and have more fun with their characters.


Not that you're suggesting this, I realize, but directly porting that over would basically steal the Deva's thunder.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
« Last edit by Gary on Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:24 pm. »
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Jonathan Berg wrote
Just to chime in on the spellscar thing, I will be running a FR game, probably starting in summer or so, so that would probably be a part of that game.


I don't see the problem with using them as new aberrant dragonmarks in this game AND as spellscars in the eventual FR game. I mean, how many PC's are even going to take them in the first place? And if they do, it's entirely probable that the PC's will take different spellscar traits and power-swaps (if they do any power-swaps at all).

So, yeah, duplicating the availability of these rules to represent two different things in the two campaigns just seems a non-issue to me. ;)
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
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Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Yeah, I realize that that is similar to the Deva power. The difference is the Deva would be able to use that power for any reason between short rests (which is really what the 3.5e game has, more or less), but that this bonus (+2), is for doing specific things. I remember reading that the DMG 2 has some info on Improvised Weapons (or traps or whatever), such as using a chandelier, but I don't know how detailed it went into these things.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light

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