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PoL Character, Leveling, and Rules discussions

Moderators: Emily, Gary, Jonathan Berg, Josh, Michael Doss, Viktor.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
Clever. How did you figure that out? This might actually get some attention if you posted it on the WoTC community forums.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
I got lucky. The last dnd4e file that Emily sent me had an expertise feat in it that was marked orange and I realized I couldn't delete it. After thinking on it, it dawned on me that she must have put a house feat in her offline version and then sent me the offline CB file. That's when I experimented a little.
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
« Last edit by Viktor on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:40 am. »
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Woohoo, +2 to Arcana and Diplomacy checks in the middle of a battle! ;)
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Josh wrote
Woohoo, +2 to Arcana and Diplomacy checks in the middle of a battle! ;)


LOL! Well, it's better than nothing and you know I allow skill use via minor actions during battles. Do any of the other's work for you?
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Viktor wrote
Gary, a dndinsider article today is showcasing some upcoming expertise feats that might interest you playing Azad (both are better than bland versatile).

Devoted Priest Expertise
Even when you wade into battle with your weapon
at the ready, your enemies still feel the sting of the
symbol of your faith.
Benefit: When you are using a holy symbol and
wielding a melee weapon with which you are proficient,
you gain a +1 feat bonus to weapon attack

Devout Protector Expertise
The power of your faith shines from both your holy
symbol and your weapon, enhancing your attacks
and your shield at the same time.
Benefit: When you are using a holy symbol,
wielding a melee weapon with which you are proficient,
and using a shield, you gain a +1 feat bonus to
weapon attack rolls you make with the weapon and
a +1 feat bonus to implement attack rolls you make
with the holy symbol. These bonuses increase to +2 at
11th level and +3 at 21st level.
Also, when you hit with a divine at-will attack
power or a basic attack while wielding a melee
weapon, using a shield, and using a holy symbol, your shield bonus to Reflex increases by 1 until the start of
your next turn.


Thanks, Viktor. However, the funny thing is that both of those only apply to weapon attacks with the weapon and implement attacks with the implement. Azad uses her longsword to make implement attacks, though, so Devout Protector and Devoted Priest wouldn't apply.

Weird article...
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
« Last edit by Gary on Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:36 am. »
Moderator
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
Josh wrote
Woohoo, +2 to Arcana and Diplomacy checks in the middle of a battle! ;)


Sentinel can wade into combat before making his arcana checks. 8)
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Looking at the other ones, War Wizard's Expertise DOES fix the issue that Swordmages face, but it's weird they forgot other classes sometimes use weapons as implements, too.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
One more comment... Eldritch Fusilade would not have helped Curator, since he used his crossbow as an implement (thanks to another feat), so he'd still be stuck with versatile, too.

The whole point of weapliments is to minimize the cost (in both items and feats) in taking both weapon and implement powers, and with the exception of War Wizard's Expertise, it seems to miss the boat entirely, making the feats only apply to weapon attacks with weapons and implement attacks with implements.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Also, War Wizard's extra bonus doesn't have much point for Swordmages, since they don't really have unfriendly bursts. It can help Warlocks and Sorcs (with the light blade aspect), but the Heavy Blade seems almost only attuned to certain races (like Eladrin, who have Longsword Prof) and maybe some Essentials classes. As far as Eldritch Fusilade, it looks to be specific for an Artificer, like Curator, but it doesn't solve the problem of having to buy two items. These really are weird feats that seem very specific to, not just individual classes, but particular versions of those classes.
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Well, so this works for some of you but not for others? Maybe more will come out in due time. I think the Weapon Ki expertise will work for Demuriath. In any case, we'll wait for it to hit the online CB before using them.

Yup, Josh, nothing has ever fixed multiple weapon dependency. Not for two weapon rangers, artificers, paladins, or any even any fighter who wants to specialize in multiple weapons. There are a few magical items that can be used as both weapon and implement and even a few feats, but then it feels like a diminished selection of items or a tax feat.

I've accepted this with Ravenblade (two-weapon ranger) and have come to enjoy creating versatility with his two different craghammers. However, I admit it's annoying to remember the bonuses when one weapon is +3 and the other +2. Think of the multiple weapon need more as an opportunity for another interesting magical item and it'll go easier. :mrgreen:
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
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Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
The easiest solution to using multiple weapons is to take a multi-class with a class that has ki focus proficiency (assassin and monk) and then just use a ki focus and take Ki Focus Expertise (+1/tier to hit with implement or ki focused weapon attacks and +1/tier damage to bloodied enemies) or Master at Arms (+1/tier to all weapon attacks and some sort of weapon switching quickly benefit) if the actual weapons aren't all in a single weapon group.

Not really feasible with Ravenblade now, since he's already MC'ed paladin and taking a paladin paragon path, but that's how Khav is going. He can use his short sword and dagger, and only worry about keeping his Ki Focus up to date. And since he only attacks with light blades, he took Light Blade Expertise, which works a little bit better for him than Ki Focus Expertise.

The existing Ki Focus Expertise already did both weapon and implement attacks with ki focuses, so it's funny that the ki focus version in the article is decent.

EDIT: Actually, the existing Ki Focus Expertise grants the +1/tier damage to bloodied creatures ALL attacks, not just at-wills, so this one actually ends up being strictly worse. More weirdness...
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
« Last edit by Gary on Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:13 pm. »
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 7786
Gary wrote
EDIT: Actually, the existing Ki Focus Expertise grants the +1/tier damage to bloodied creatures ALL attacks, not just at-wills, so this one actually ends up being strictly worse. More weirdness...


So, for Demuriath/Jon, does that mean he should use the old ki focus expertise then? Yeah, more rules, more inconsistencies perhaps. And here I thought this would help you guys.... :(
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Ravenblade - Dwarf Two-Weapon Ranger, Hammer of Moradin (Scales of War)
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Yeah, I can't see any reason to take the new ki focus feat over the old. The old one is better in every way in which they differ.

I can only hope that this article gets fixed before it goes live, since it's marked "Playtest."
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
Demuriath doesn't use a ki focus, so if he just gets a standard one, this will work for him, I think. He uses his heavy blade as his implement as well.
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
True, but you COULD use a ki focus.

Actually, Heavy Blade Expertise only applies to weapon attacks, so for any implement powers you might have, you would not get a feat bonus with HBE, which is the same problem Azad currently has with her longsword. The solution for Demuriath would be to use whatever badass magic sword you want to get those magic properties, then get a non-magic ki-focus and take Ki Focus Expertise, which I think would then apply to implement attacks made with your sword. I'd have to play with this in the builder to be sure.

Besides, the rider on KFE (+1/tier to damage against bloodied creatures) fits Demuriath WAY more than the rider on HBE (+2 defenses to OA's). :)

EDIT: Your Executioner's Noose at-will is an implement attack, so you'll definitely want to ether do the Ki Focus Expertise work-around described above or take Versatile Expertise, and avoid HBE.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
« Last edit by Gary on Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:51 pm. »
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
Or the new one Viktor found once that is up. I will do versatile for now.
Moderator
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
The Part II thread appears to be locked?
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
Not to me? Try again?
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
Moderator
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 1238
Weird. The logo next to the thread was an x, now it's back to the arrow.
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Sentinel - Warforged Shielding Swordmage (Eberron)
Allena Walmond - Human Paladin of Amaunator (Forgotten Realms)
Variel - Elf Beastmaster Ranger
Thaelan the Clanless - Dwarf Protector Spirit Shaman (Dungeon Delve 4)
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 3164
Maybe when I posted I accidentally clicked something I shouldn't have?
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Dungeon Master - The Dark Campaign
Sir Muurak - Mul Cavalier 14, Scales of War
Demuriath - Revenant Assassin 5, Points of Light
Kurvilis - Gnome Mage 4, Eberron
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
It's all Jonathan's fault.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign
Moderator
Registered: Oct 2008
Posts: 4627
Not particularly. And who is Gond?
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Mal Geminous - Tiefling Warlord, Scales of War
Corydimbiddle - Gnome Artificer, Points of Light
Moderator
Registered: Jun 2008
Posts: 5084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
The feat's from an article on artificers in the Forgotten Realms, and Gond is the FR god of invention and machinery that gnomes there often follow.
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Salazar Miller - Human Sorcerer 24 - Scales of War
Azad Halim al'Zahir - Tiefling Battlemind|Paladin 7 - Points of Light
Khavak'aashta - Half-Orc Thief 5 - Eberron
Dwimmerlaik - Revenant Hexblade 2 - Dark Campaign

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